Contradictory Explanations of Jiva-tattva by Srila Svami Maharaj
- The Symbol of Faith
- 5 days ago
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Contradictory Explanations of Jiva-tattva by Srila Svami Maharaj
Below, we present statements by Śrīla Svāmī Mahārāja on the same subject matter, arranged into groups to facilitate comparison.
Group A:
“As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned.”
[…]
“But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.”
***
“. . . because we have also come down from Vaikuṇṭha some millions and millions of years ago. Anādi karama-phale (Gītāvalī). Anādi means before the creation.”
***
“Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.”
***
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupāda: Many. There are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature . . . I now have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.
Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya-Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa's doorkeeper. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Kṛṣṇa's personal associates, keeping the doorkeeper. How they fell down?
Vipina: How they fall down?
Devotee (4): Went in the family of Hiraṇyakaśipu?
Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entity, we are not as powerful as Kṛṣṇa, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. (aside) Find out this verse.
[…]
Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that, "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.
***
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta:
kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare
pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
(Prema-vivarta)
As soon as . . . we are eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7)—we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa—so Kṛṣṇa has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Kṛṣṇa, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth.
***
Acyutānanda: In Andhra, I said, "There's so much land where they're growing tobacco. You could grow food." But in the Gītā it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."
Prabhupāda: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutānanda: He can return.
***
Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately, if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi and . . . the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupāda: There is return. That is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahaṁsa: If we want.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Fall down?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So? They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise, what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this."
***
Dr. Mize: The question that bothers me in part is, then, why would the soul . . . because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally, or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.
Prabhupāda: That is his independence.
Dr. Mize: Independence.
Prabhupāda: Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls.
Dr. Mize: I'm sorry, he what?
Prabhupāda: He falls down.
Dr. Mize: He falls.
Prabhupāda: He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me.
[…]
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our material contaminated state, when we act in a foolishly or mad . . . then we call that tamas, or ignorance. But in the spiritual sky when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, what acts . . . does something act upon him to make him illusioned at that point also?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offense. They did not allow the four Kumāras to enter. That was their fault. And the Kumāras became very sorry. Then they cursed him that, "You are not fit to remain in this place." So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down because we are small. Just like small fragment of fire, although it is fire, it is prone to be extinguished. The big fire does not extinguish. So Kṛṣṇa the big fire, and we are part and parcel, sparks, very small.
Group B:
“From this statement we can understand how anxious the Lord is to get his servitor back into Vaikuṇṭha. Therefore this incident proves that those who have once entered a Vaikuṇṭha planet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident. The Lord is always anxious to get such devotees back again to the Vaikuṇṭha planets as soon as possible.”
***
“In Bhagavad-gītā (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to this material world.”
***
“Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.
[…]
In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira says, aśraddheya ivābhāti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuṇṭha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Nārada Muni as follows.”
***
“But bhakti-yogīs, once approaching the Supreme Personality of Godhead, never come back to this material world, as it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yad gatvā na nivartante: upon going, one never comes back. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: after giving up this body, he never comes back again to accept a material body.
[…]
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation.”
***
“This verse also guarantees that devotees who constantly think of Kṛṣṇa in a particular relationship will never return to this material world.”
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“But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning to this material world.”
***
“As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes an associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life, and full knowledge.”
***
“It is here clearly stated that the supreme destination, from which there is no return, is the abode of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person.”
Other:
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. (laughter) If I want that "As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa," he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his . . . from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved—anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). That is Kṛṣṇa's all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
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